Episode #181: Michael Menninger on Going “All In” on Sailing

Welcome back to Latitude 38‘s Good Jibes podcast where chat with West Coast sailors and hear their stories and tips on cruising, racing and just plain sailing. This week we sat down with Michael Menninger and learned about his journey to becoming a professional sailor and racing in the top events in the world. Michael is flight controller for American Magic, and is a match-racing world champion, team-racing world champion, and Etchells world champion.

Hear the most nostalgic sailing moments from his growing up with his sailing family, how to 100% commit to pro-sailing and racing, the lessons he’s learned from team racing and his favorite coaches, how to learn the physics of your boat, and how to learn to be a good teammate.

Here’s a sample of what you’ll hear in this episode: 

• A creative workout location 
• What influenced Michael to become a sailor?
• When did he start racing?
• What’s the greatest gift sailing has given him?
• What was the protest that cost him his first Nationals?

Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and your other favorite podcast spots — follow and leave a 5-star review if you’re feeling the Good Jibes!

Connect with Michael at AmericanMagic.AmericasCup.com and on Instagram @AmericanMagicTeam

Check out the episode and show notes below for much more detail.

Show Notes

• Michael Menninger on Going All in on Sailing
  • [0:21] Welcome to Good Jibes with Latitude 38
  • [1:09] Welcome Michael Menninger
  • [2:03] Where was Michael born and does he have siblings?
  • [3:32] Does he remember the first time he was ever on a boat?
  • [4:28] When did he start sailing his Sabot?
  • [6:50] Was there free reign to sail at the Newport Harbor Yacht Club (NHYC)?
  • [8:03] What is a standout sailing memory from childhood?
  • [9:14] Is there a story that shaped Michael’s life as a sailor?
  • [10:20] Did Michael have the chance to sail on his grandfather’s Cal40?
  • [14:02] Are there any other standout times when the whole family was on the boat?
  • [15:20] When did Michael start racing?
  • [18:15] What was the protest that lost Michael E-division and Nationals?
  • [20:37] SailGP, the world’s most exciting racing on water, returns to California this spring with back-to-back events: the Rolex Los Angeles Sail Grand Prix on March 15-16 and the Oracle San Francisco Sail Grand Prix on March 22-23. Experience two action-packed weekends as 12 national teams battle it out in high-speed, 50-foot foiling catamarans flying at over 60 mph. With national pride, personal glory, and $12.8 million in prize money on the line, the stakes have never been higher for sailing’s top athletes. Don’t miss your chance to witness this epic, close-to-shore racing set against the iconic backdrops of the Port of LA in SoCal and the Golden Gate Bridge on the Bay. Enjoy the ultimate day out by the water and get your tickets now at SailGP.com
  • Team Racing
  • [21:32] What is so fun about team racing?
  • [23:07] What is the most important lesson Michael has learned from racing?
  • [24:48] How did Michael get involved in the Youth America’s Cup?
  • [29:04] How did it initially feel racing as the new guy on a very close team?
  • [31:24] Could this be the best workout routine for sailors?
  • [34:46] Michael’s most memorable coach
  • [37:10] What’s the process to get on America’s Cup teams?
  • [41:56] What’s the fastest Michael’s gone on a foiling monohull?
  • [44:24] What did the other boats have that Michael’s team didn’t?
  • [47:52] What’s next for Michael professionally?
  • [49:27] SailGP, the world’s most exciting racing on water, returns to California this spring with back-to-back events: the Rolex Los Angeles Sail Grand Prix on March 15-16 and the Oracle San Francisco Sail Grand Prix on March 22-23. Experience two action-packed weekends as 12 national teams battle it out in high-speed, 50-foot foiling catamarans flying at over 60 mph. With national pride, personal glory, and $12.8 million in prize money on the line, the stakes have never been higher for sailing’s top athletes. Don’t miss your chance to witness this epic, close-to-shore racing set against the iconic backdrops of the Port of LA in SoCal and the Golden Gate Bridge on the Bay. Enjoy the ultimate day out by the water and get your tickets now at SailGP.com
  • Short Tacks
  • [50:22] Michael’s favorite book – The Catcher in the Rye by J. D. Salinger
  • [50:51] Who does he admire most in the world?
  • [51:20] If you could have a glass of wine with anyone, who would it be?
  • [51:50] What did Michael want to be when he was a kid?
  • [52:48] Does he remember the first time he saw Caitlin?
  • [53:14] In two words, what did Michael feel the first time he saw his son?
  • [53:30] Where’s Michael’s favorite place to sail?
  • [54:38] What’s the greatest gift sailing has given Michael?
  • [56:02] Make sure to follow Good Jibes with Latitude 38 on your favorite podcast spot and leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts
  • Check out the February 2025 issue of Latitude 38 Sailing Magazine
  • Theme Song: “Pineapple Dream” by Solxis.

Transcript:

Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.

00:02

You know, you really have to figure out on the spot of how to work with people and then how to face challenges.

00:22

Ahoy, it’s time to cast off, laugh, learn, and have more fun sailing. My name is Moe Roddy and I am the host of today’s episode of Good Jibes, a podcast to help you experience the world of sailing through the eyes of the West Coast sailor. Each week, hear stories and tips from the West Coast sailing community about cruising, racing, and just sailing. Brought to you by Latitude 38.

00:49

the sailing magazine for West Coast sailors since 1977. Make sure you visit our website and subscribe to Good Jibes to enjoy our weekly podcasts. You won’t be sorry. I’ll remind you again at the end of this podcast today and share with you a link to subscribe.

01:09

I am so excited to have this guest on the show today. He’s just an incredible sailor. And if that wasn’t enough, he’s an incredible human being as well. It’s a rare combination. He was born into a family that is passionate about sailing. It runs through both sides of his family and it shows. I know his grandparents, George and Marye Griffith, would be so proud of him if they were still alive. And I know for a fact, his mother, Mary Griffith Menninger,

01:38

San Francisco Yacht Club’s Yachtwoman of the Year, and his father, Southern California racer, Bill Menninger, are also so proud. Of course, I’m talking about Michael Menninger, trimmer on America’s Cup boat, American Magic. Welcome, Michael. Thanks, ma’am. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. Thanks for agreeing to doing this. Of course. So let’s start at the beginning. Where were you born? Yeah, I was born in Newport Beach, California, 1989.

02:07

and that’s where I learned how to sail. And do you have siblings? Yeah, I have an older sister, Marla Meninger, and then an older step-sister, and both of them were pretty avid sailors. They’ve actually both sailed with me in like 420s since CFGA’s grown up, so it was a family affair. It was fun. Oh, nice. Who’s calmer on the boat, you or your sisters? I think we all have pretty similar demeanor. I think my step-sister may have been

02:35

I mean, I think both my sisters are probably like more overtly competitive, but, uh, and maybe I was the glue that kind of kept it all together, but, uh, but we had a lot of fun sailing with each other. I miss those days. Oh, sweet. Talking to your mom one time, she was saying that your sister Marla, she was the one that just wasn’t into sailing really. Right. And then next thing you know, she’s living at Yik Yik and Yale university and on the sailing team there. I mean, did you, did you influence her?

03:03

I don’t know. I think we both started sailing sabbats around the same time out of the Newport Harbor Yacht Club. And I think for some reason, sailing didn’t, like Marla didn’t really fully gravitate towards sailing. And to be honest, like I don’t think I truly loved sailing sabbats either. I think like when I started sailing double-handed boats, it kind of clicked for me a little bit more like something about having another person sailing with you and kind of making it more of a team aspect was something I was more interested in. But yeah, then Marla and I both started

03:32

gosh, maybe when we were like 12 years old. And then she got, she was an exceptional crew and then she became the captain of the Yale sailing team later on. So she’s a really good sailor herself. That’s amazing. Do you remember the first time you were ever on a boat? Not really. I think my first memory of sailing, I think was sailing with my dad and my mom on their Etchells, probably when I was like three or four years old. I think the memory is that I

04:00

cut my finger, but maybe I like fabricated that memory. Yeah, I remember being on boats like very early on. And I think that was a cool thing about our family growing up in Southern California was whether I was sailing a Sabbath or sailing with my parents at New Brerhebiac Club or going on my grandparents’ boat to Catalina Island, I was kind of like brought up on boats. And so it was an integral part of my growing up. So you started sailing, you think, when you were about, well, you were on boats at three or four, but when did you?

04:28

When did you start sailing your Sabbath? I think I started when I was seven or six or seven. Yeah. Was that through a junior sailing program? Yeah, through the junior program at Newport Harbor Yaklub. It’s a truly exceptional program. Yeah, I can’t say enough about it. I think growing up to sail there is just, it’s very easy just because you’re right inside the bay there. It’s very calm, very gentle breeze each summer day.

04:55

It was really fun. We had really good coaches. It’s a very kind of homey yacht club where there’s a lot of avid sailors that are parents and they’re always around kind of helping their kids get their boats ready and kind of doing boat work. And so we kind of were brought up in a community where there were a lot of our parents who were competitive avid sailors and then that kind of just transcended down to the junior classes. And we had a really fun culture. Wow. So you did do some sailing with your parents on the Etchells?

05:24

What was that like? I mean, honestly, like we didn’t do any, I don’t think I did any races with them, but I remember sailing, I think that’s probably my first sailing memory. And then the other sailing I did with my parents early on was actually just sailing on bigger boats. Like my dad sailed pretty avidly, he worked for North sails and then he sailed avidly on like Magnitude, which was like, you know, I think Magnitude was like a Santa Cruz seven, or an Andrew 70, and then Doug Baker, the owner of Magnitude, built the Magnitude 80.

05:54

And so then I kind of like tagged along with Bill on some of those races, like Ensenada race and kind of stuff like that when I was really, really young. And I had a funny nickname that called me quarter because my dad’s name is Dollar Bill. And since I was little, they called me quarter and then I graduated the 50 cent. I never made it to, yeah, I never made it to 75 cents, but so maybe I’m still- Oh, you’re past a dollar now. You’re probably at a $2 bill.

06:22

the $2 bill because you’re not many of you exist. I’ve had the opportunity to talk to Stan Honey and Bo Verolik and of course your mom and they all grew up at LA Yacht Club and it sounds like their life was really idyllic because they just would take their boats out and there would be no parents like guiding them or telling them where to go what to do and they just like had free reign. It was like that at all for you? Did you have that kind of freedom?

06:52

Yeah, for sure. A little bit. Mine was a little bit different. Like at that Newport Harbor Yacht Club, I don’t think we quite had that freedom. Like all of our sailing, at least in Sabbath, was with coaches. But definitely my freedom or our freedom as kids, like me and my sisters, was at Catalina Island. And just like once you’re, you know, you take your boat over to Catalina Island and you tie it up to a mooring and then you’re there for, you know, two or three days. And that’s really where you have a lot of freedom. You know, as a kid, you can jump off the boat, go swimming to the beach.

07:20

We had a guppy that we could, like it was a rowboat and like a sailboat, we could rig it into a sailboat. So we had the freedom to go rowing by ourselves or sailing by ourselves. And then we had lasers on the beach and opties on the beach that we could just rig and go kind of go sailing by ourselves. And that was really freedom. Cause you know, I think like our parents also wanted to enjoy the island as well. So they gave us, you know, we weren’t really tight on a leash and I have some memories of sailing with them.

07:49

a good friend, Robbie Jorgensen, we took like a laser out and sailed like miles off shore and like dig winded waves and like, we’re capsizing and like looking back on it was probably pretty dangerous. But it was there was some awesome memories there. And that was truly a lot of freedom. So it’s good. Oh, nice. Is that you would set stand out as a good memory was one of your better memories as a kid? For sure. It was a really funny memory because we would go to Howlands, which is closer to the West End.

08:17

So I think in the summer it would be typically a little bit windier than it is like closer to the East end of Catalina and some bigger waves. And I just remember two of us on a laser, like, you know, probably not much more than a hundred pounds each, like flying down these waves downwind. And I remember we capsized and turtled and lost the centerboard out of the, out of the boat. So like we had, it was pretty full on like trying to get the boat back up. Right. And by the time we got back to the, to the Cove, I remember all of our parents are just like

08:48

drinking cocktails on a boat and they’re like, oh yeah, have you guys had a good sail? We’re like, yeah, yeah, it was actually pretty intense. And they’re just like, having a beer, a cocktail, not really caring at all. I think it was pretty easy, but that’s Catalina for you. I know our audience can’t see me, but I’ve got my hand over my eyes. Oh, that sounds like fun. For your parents. Yeah, yeah.

09:14

Do you have a story from your childhood that shaped you as a kid that prepared you for what was coming? I think my most fondest memories really were we’re really going to Catalina with with our family and we’d go with Mary’s parents George and Millie Griffith. They lived in Long Beach and had a powerboat named Sarissa, which Stan Honey now owns but um, yeah, I think and like George was like a really kind of exceptional yachtsman like he was

09:42

like a very smart engineer and kind of designed and built a lot of boats and loved rowing and loved sailing and loved diving. So I think, um, I think just like growing up and being around him and being just on boats from an early age, just kind of like taught me from a very young age of just how to be very mindful when on a boat and just be a team player and make sure that, you know, just, just to help out whatever it was, um, whether it was like preparing a dock line or getting the fender ready or

10:10

or driving the boat onto the mooring and just like stuff, all that stuff I think kind of prepared me to be just a good teammate and be a valuable person to have on the water with you. So. When did your grandfather, well, first of all, the Cal 40s were his first real big design that went viral, as put the word we say, right? When, how old were you when that boat came out and did you get a chance to sail on it? No, by the time I was born, they had moved on.

10:40

to power boats. I think they built their first power boats for us like in 1987. So like right before I was born, I think just when they got a little bit older, my grandmother was less interested in healing over and sailing a couple of hours to Catalina and get in there in the dark and turning the key and going 20 knots on a power boat was a lot easier. So we actually didn’t sail a lot. I didn’t get a whole lot of chance of the sail with my grandfather, but.

11:09

Yeah, the Cal 40 was a really cool thing that he was involved with. He, he and Bill Lapworth kind of instated the idea and Bill Lapworth did a lot of the, you know, design on the boat. And George, my grandfather was the first owner of the Cal 40. And, you know, I wish I could have sailed more with him, you know, in his time, cause he was a very respected sailor in Southern California. And, uh, yeah, it would have been cool to go back in time and sail them. But, uh, unfortunately, a lot of those opportunities think it’s B.

11:38

So what was it like to be on Sarissa? So it would be you, your mom, your dad, your grandparents, Marla, your other sister. I mean, all of you would just like pile aboard? Yeah, it was like, most of the time, my two grandparents, my mom Mary and my sister and I. And then sometimes my uncle David would be, you know, every single summer we would go up to Santa Cruz Island as well. We would go up with our good friends, the Galloways and the Clockies. And we’d kind of, we’d all take our boats up to

12:08

Santa Cruz Island and go to Santa Rosa Island and go to San Miguel Island. And we do a two week long trip exploring all over. And those are really, so my uncle David would, he lived in Italy at the time and he would fly over and we’d do these long cruises and spend two weeks on a, you know, the boat’s not that big. And so there’d be six of us living on a boat for two weeks. It was pretty fun. Tell us about the boat. Tell us about Sarissa. I’ve been a boarder. I spent a weekend with your mom on her and.

12:34

I didn’t get a cabin. I got the floor and the main salon. Yeah, that was me a lot of the time. I got your bunk. It’s a good place to sleep. You’re much younger. You could get up off the floor a lot easier than I did. Yeah. That was a cool boat. It was a very minimalist boat. It was like 48 feet long, 11 feet wide. I think it weighed like 10,500 pounds. So it was a very light, very light 48 foot boat. And it was simple. It had two berths down below, two bathrooms down below.

13:04

The galley was upstairs, kind of with the main salon. And it was a really cool boat, you know, cruised at 20 knots, so we’d get around pretty easily. And it was very narrow. So I remember just coming back from Catalina, we were like doing some passages, and you know, from Santa Rosa to San Miguel, in the summer, sometimes when it’s windy, was pretty rough and pretty exciting. I was always nervous that the boat was gonna capsize because it was so narrow, but.

13:33

George and David assured me that the wasn’t going to flip over, but no, we had some great times and I’m glad it’s in good hands with the honeys and maybe one day we’ll take ownership again and have it here in San Francisco, which would be fun. Yeah, in the meantime, I’m sure you would be welcomed aboard anytime. Don’t quote me on that. Stan, I’m just saying that so… Stan, I just gave a berth away on your boat.

14:02

But it sounds like it was really, really wonderful. You know, you made me think about you were nervous it was going to capsize in the rough weather. And I’m thinking, yeah, these are the same people who were having cocktails while you were capsizing on the laser out in the open water. Yeah. Do you have anything other than that, that stands out from that time that you really remember being on the boat and with everybody?

14:27

Exploring the Channel Islands was a big highlight for me as a kid. I think I’m kind of, I’m a father now, I have a three year old son, and I’m kind of thinking forward to what experiences we can provide to our kids that can kind of give them the same freedoms that I have when I was a kid. So it’s fun to kind of think about what I can do for, or at least help, help my next generation kind of have that same setup in some way. If you have any ideas, let me know. I’m thinking Tims the Island is the, is the best option as of yet, but.

14:57

Yes, go up for the for a week in the summer on a get yourself a powerboat. Yeah, exactly. Or that boat. Yeah. Yeah. I think just like growing up in New at New Borough of Yakut was really fun. We had a really good a really good couple generations of kids there and and we had a lot of fun. It still feels like truly my home Yakut when I go back to know everyone. It’s a good time. So when did you start racing? When I was

15:25

started. So when I was like seven years old in the Sabbath, they started as pretty young. And how did you do? I think pretty well. Like, I think when you start out, you’re like in the novices. And I think they had two divisions of novices. And I was like one of the one of like the best novices. I remember I got an award for that. But yeah, like every summer you do you compete in regattas. And if you do all the regattas, you move up to some more to kind of higher level divisions and

15:55

I think I moved up pretty quickly, but I never won the Sabbath Nationals. I was never the best Sabbath sailor. Yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know what it was. I don’t know if it didn’t like click for me or if I didn’t have the best the best boat because Sabbaths are kind of pretty finicky. You can kind of have a good boat, a bad boat. But yeah, I think sailing kind of clicked for me a little bit more when I got into double handed sailing, for sure. And that was in high school? Yeah, that would have been high school. I think when we were in eighth grade, we were allowed to sail with the high school team.

16:25

So when we’re in eighth grade, we all, like a couple of us had our own CFJs and we’ve sailed in all the high school practices. And, uh, yeah, that was, I think that was really, I think I might’ve enjoyed that sailing a little bit more than, um, than kind of like bigger fleet races. And you were sailing with, um, Charlie Buckingham then, right? Yeah. We’re the same year. And, uh, we, did you race together or raced against each other? Well, we always raced. I mean, we’re always on the same.

16:52

like high school team and stuff like that. But we grew up racing against each other, you know, our whole lives. So, and he was a phenomenal Sabbath sailor and he’s an exceptional sailor, obviously. And I think in, yeah, in high school, we had a lot of fun being good friends and teammates and we won the nationals in high school. We probably should have won a couple more. I think we were really close. We had a really good team, but yeah, it was, it’s always fun to sail with Charlie. He’s a good guy.

17:18

Yeah, I thought you had won three times, but nationals, but you you’re not allowed to your first year of high school. So you only had sophomore, junior and senior year to compete in that, right? Yeah, I think our sophomore year We won on the water and then lost in a protest. Oh, no looking back on it. I think if we would have So I think I think I won e division my sophomore year and I think I was being protested and if I would have just withdrawn the protest

17:45

we would have won nationals, but I would have lost A division. And I’m pretty sure this is how I remembered at least. I think I was like so confident in the protest that I was like, no, I think we should just, and my, my coach, like it must’ve agreed, you know, and our coach was like, okay, well just like, if you think you can win the protest, win the protest, so then we can, you can win A division and we can win the nationals. But we lost, uh, I lost the protest. I’ll never forget that. And, um, I lost the nationals.

18:15

by like a point. Oh no. That was a bit sad. What was the protest? I think it was like Mark, like Mark room at a Lourdes mark with Tyler, it was against Tyler Sinks, who’s also a really, really good sailor from San Diego. So it was, it may have started a rivalry there. Oh, we talk a lot of rules in this house. Cause my partners are national judge. Where did you go to college? I went to college in St. Mary’s, Maryland.

18:45

St. Mary’s of Maryland, very different than just St. Mary’s. Yeah. It’s called St. Mary’s College of Maryland. And that was a great experience too. I think that’s kind of when I really put all my effort into sailing. Like I think in high school and kind of junior sailing, I don’t want to say like I half-assed it, but I don’t think I like really like put all of my like devotion and focus in the sailing or kind of like was…

19:14

like outwardly seen as trying to do really well at sailing. But I think in St. Mary’s, we had such a good environment and culture there. And I think I just wanted to do, I think that was the first time that I truly wanted to do the very best that I could. And I was like very self-motivated. So I think that’s probably where I learned the most about sailing and got probably personally got the best. So that was really fun. We had really good competitive practices and.

19:41

I felt like I pushed myself hard and tried to push the team hard. And yeah, I think I had a very good college career. We won a couple of national championships and I was the runner up to College Hale of the Year a couple of times. Unfortunately, I didn’t get the award, but it was close. You were all American as well, I think, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, but the real award is the College Hale of the Year award, so. Aw.

20:10

I think all American is pretty good, Michael. Yeah. But anyway, and what did you major in? I majored in economics. Did you really? Do you use that today? Not really. No? It’s hard to apply it to wind direction and everything. We will be right back with this episode of the Good Jibes podcast with Michael Menninger, America’s cup sailor.

20:37

Sail GP, the world’s most exciting racing on the water, returns to California this spring with back-to-back events. The Rolex Los Angeles Sail Grand Prix on March 15th and 16th, and the Oracle San Francisco Sail Grand Prix on March 22nd, 23rd. Experience these two action-packed weekends as 12 national teams battle it out in high-speed 50-foot foiling catamarans flying at over 60 miles per hour. With national pride.

21:04

personal glory and $12.8 million in prize money on the line. The stakes have never been higher for sailing’s top athletes. Don’t miss your chance to witness this epic, close to shore racing set against the iconic backdrops of the Port of Los Angeles in SoCal and the Golden Gate Bridge on the Bay. Enjoy the ultimate day out by the water and get your tickets now at sailgp.com. That’s S-A-I-L-G-P.com.

21:32

Welcome back to the Good Jobs podcast. I’m Mo Roddy and my guest today is America’s Cup sailor, Michael Menninger. I love team racing. It’s probably my favorite form of racing to watch as a spectator. It’s my favorite racing to be on race committee with. It’s just, I love team racing. And I understand that that was a major part of your college experience too and you really liked it as well. Tell me what is it about team racing that’s so much fun?

22:02

I think team racing is kind of more of a game, like I think kind of a game of five sailing a little bit. And furthermore, it becomes more of a team sport instead of kind of a more individual sport. And so I think my high school coach was Caleb Sillsby who went to St. Mary’s. And so in high school, he was, he did a really good job with teaching us team racing and teaching us kind of the proper way to team race. And so we learned a lot of it in high school and then-

22:31

Um, at St. Mary’s, the award, we had two coaches and we had Adam Warble, who was our, our head coach. And then Dill Ward was our assistant coach and Bill kind of took the lead on teaching us team racing a little bit. And yeah, I really love team racing. It’s probably my favorite ceiling as well. Like match racing, team racing. Yeah, it’s, it’s fun. We, yeah, we won the team racing nationals my junior year and we were a second in the team race nationals my sophomore year, but yeah, I love it a lot.

22:59

Well, it’s great, you know, as a spectator to watch it. It’s just, it’s exciting. What would you say is something that everyone can learn from team racing? And what was the most important lesson you learned? I think it teaches a lot of really good fundamentals. I think like, like if you go through the whole team race, like starting, you have to be very disciplined and kind of like what end you’re starting at, and then the last little bit of the team race start needs to be pretty one-on-one, so it kind of turns into a match race once you’ve.

23:25

If you’re starting at the boat end and you found out who else is starting at the boat end, it then kind of turns into a match race the last 20, 30 seconds. And then I think the best team racers are able to identify like right after the starting line gun goes off. Like identifying like what play you’re in, like are you in a play one, meaning that you have a one, two or one, two, three, and you’re just trying to sail fast and, and cover the people who are immediately behind you, or if you’re. Like in a, sorry, I’m going to do a bit of detail, but, but, um,

23:55

Yeah, I think I think team racing is cool because you have to be a fast sailor at times. You have to have really good boat handling at times, but you also have to be able to make hard plays at times and be able to slow their boats down at times and set mark traps. So I think it rewards really well rounded sailors. And you have to think of not just yourself, but your whole team. Like everything you do is going to affect them, either good or bad. Yeah, it’s not. I’m in front and I’m going to win no matter what. See the bye bye. There’s my team.

24:24

But sometimes you want to go back, right? And not cross that finish line. Hang out there and push the other guy over around the pin and so he can’t finish while your other teammates finish. Right? Yeah. That’s a big deal. That’s teamwork. Which reminds me, after college, you were involved in the Youth Americas Cup in 2013. So tell the audience a bit about that. Yeah, that’s actually kind of a funny story.

24:53

Because after college, I decided not to do an Olympic campaign. I had a real job at an investment bank down in Newport Beach, California. And that was a hard decision, choosing to work instead of choosing to work instead of go the Olympic route. But then I got a job up in San Francisco at Nielsen. I was like a business analyst at Nielsen. So I moved up to San Francisco from Newport Beach and I was like working one day and a friend from St. Mary’s.

25:23

calls me up and says, hey, do you want to go sailing this weekend? I think it was like Tuesday or something. And I’m like, I’m like, sure. Like what are we like, what’s, what’s going on? And he was like, oh, well there’s a youth America’s cup tryout. And I have a, I have a team, but we need, we need like a couple of sail, like sailors to fill in for spots. And I’m like, okay, that sounds really fun. And so I show up, I think I’m like, so I think like the Friday before this, that Saturday.

25:50

My friend calls me up and he’s like, Hey, do you know of anyone else that can sail with us? Cause like some, some other people have his team, like couldn’t come or something. Like his team was, it was not organized very well at all. So we got my friend Jackson Benvenuti from Charleston and another friend, Mark Ivy to come to say, to sail for my friend’s like try out and we show up to the, we show up on Saturday and the way it worked is Oracle was trying out two teams at once.

26:19

So there were two youth teams trying out for a weekend and then another weekend there’d be two other teams. And so on Saturday, I remember they started us out with like a pretty intense workout before we would go out in the water and sail. And I remember one of the guys on the team was like throwing up after the workout. And he like was so messed up from the workout that he couldn’t even go sailing. So he like, he couldn’t even like manage himself well enough to like be okay to go on the boat.

26:48

So we basically like did this tryout with like no one, like one or two people from the original team. And the rest of us were like just villains. And right before we were like in a protector, like following the other youth, his other youth team started before us. And we’re in the battle with the protector. And my friend, like he asked me, he’s like, he’s like, Michael, like, what do you think about driving or helming?

27:14

And I told him, I was, cause he was, he was like, I think he was a little bit nervous about, about helming. And, and I told him straight up, I was like, if you let me helm the boat, I think we’ll get selected to be the youth team. Cause I was, I was pretty confident. I was like, I think we can do this. And, uh, so he’s like, okay, you can drive. And it’s like, that was like literally five minutes before we were supposed to step on the AC 45. And so we, we had like a really good tryout, like we sailed really well.

27:41

One of the Oracle sailors sailed with us the whole time, kind of like, kind of monitoring us and telling us what’s like where to go and what to do and stuff. So we had a good tryout and, um, like, I think a couple months later, they, they tried out like, like 15 teams or something. There were a lot of teams trying out. And a couple months later I was like in my office, can work. So like working in my normal job. And I got a call from, can we press the Oracle coach saying that

28:07

They basically said that the team that I was on was like the worst team in terms of its organization. But I was the best helmsman that they saw. So they wanted to take me off of that team and put me on another team that was like better organized, but didn’t have a good helmsman. And so I like had to think about it a little bit, but I of course said yes. But it was, it was pretty fortuitous that my friend first asked me to like go see on that weekend.

28:38

But anyway, it was, that was really fun. That kind of kickstarted my pro sailing because we did pretty well at the youth America’s cup considering and, um, and I was like, okay, I kind of actually really miss sailing a lot. And so I kind of then started to do pro sailing after that and quit my job. Oh, you did, you quit your job just like that. Yeah. Wow. I think when you know, you know, yeah, I wasn’t, I wasn’t.

29:04

truly enjoying it that much. It was actually a pretty interesting job, but I didn’t enjoy a lot of it. And I was like, okay, I’m young, I might as well see what this pro-ceiling thing is and give it a go. Do it while you can. So now you’re on a whole different team. How did that work out? Cause these guys don’t know you, right? Yeah, that was actually pretty challenging because at first I could kind of feel like they didn’t really want me to be there cause they had like a pretty tight team and tight group.

29:32

which is, which is all fine. So at first I felt like there was a bit of resistance, but, but then we all, we all got very close and we, um, we, we got some other really good sailors. Like that’s where I met Cooper Dresser for the first time. And Cooper has done a lot of America’s cups as a grinder. He’s like a fantastic grinder. And we, one of our teammates was like, Oh, I know this kid who sales 29ers is cool. Dude. And he like knew him from UC Santa Cruz. And sure enough, Cooper was like,

29:59

you know, such a good guy and an amazing sailor. So we had some really good people on the boat. It was fun. That’s amazing. I have to ask you this because I know that your workout regime for this was a little different than most people’s where they go to a gym. You guys couldn’t afford a gym, right? Yeah. Where did you work out? Well, this is a bit of a longer story, but I think you’re alluding to a funny video that we…

30:28

created about working out in a parking lot or something, or in a scrap yard. But basically, Oracle gave us an abandoned office space to use as an office. But all of the people on the team were 18, 19-year-olds. And it ended up being all of our team was just sleeping on the floor and sleeping bags in this office. And right next to the Oracle base,

30:57

down in the dog patch area. But basically, like, at the start, we were working out at the Oracle base. We were, like, eating lunch there. We were, like, kind of mingling with a little bit of the team. Like, we were, we didn’t get a lot of the opportunities that the youth guys had on American Magic this last time, but at least we were able to, like, use the Oracle facilities a little bit. But then Oracle cut that off. And then from that point on…

31:24

Uh, we like, we’re working out in like a scrap yard and like, like using like two by fours to like lift and like, it was, it was pretty funny. Where is that video? Oh man. It’s somewhere. It’s probably on YouTube. It’s really funny. I wonder what would you, what would you Google America’s Cup Youth Sailing Workout or something? Yeah, our team name is American Youth Sailing Force. So if you looked up like AYSF workout video, I’m sure it would come up. I heard it’s pretty good.

31:53

Oh, you haven’t seen it? No, but I’ve heard about it. Oh, you got to watch it after this. I will. As soon as we hang up, I’m going to go look forward to it. Damn, I should have watched it first. I’m assuming that no one called you up and said, hey, Mike, would you like to join the America’s Cup team? Where did you go after the American youth? And what happened in between those years to where the America’s Cup was happening? And there you are, find yourself trying out for that.

32:21

Like after the youth America’s cup was over, I was really hoping that there’d be some sort of kind of opportunity for a couple of the youth sailors to continue on in the real America’s cup and further to be a little bit of a pathway there. But there really wasn’t, it didn’t seem like they were eager to hire any of the youth or like have any of the youth kids kind of like be on the team and kind of like grow up that way. I’m happy to say now that.

32:49

you know, from my, I’ll just kind of fast forward a little bit, but like, I’m happy to say now that like in American Magic, American Magic does a really good job, I think, of looking to younger kids and making sure that there is a pathway for the youth sailors that we had in Barcelona to then kind of like join the team for the next America’s Cup. So I think, I thought we did a really nice job of integrating the youth team into our kind of sailing team and having them learn from early on the age about the America’s Cup, about the boats.

33:17

about the physics of the boat and kind of what it takes to be an America’s Cup sailor. So I think the pathway that American Magic has in place now is something really, really good for youth sailors. So I’m happy to say that. Back when the East America’s Cup ended and there was no opportunity to kind of continue on with Oracle, I started sailing Etchells. Argyle Campbell, who’s a fantastic sailor from Newport Beach and I connected and I put a team together to sail Etchells with him and that was super fun. I got him.

33:47

A good friend, Nick Martin, who’s from San Diego, and we sailed four 20s together, and a good friend, Victor Diaz de Leon, who went to St. Mary’s with me to all sail with Argyle, and Vince Bruin coached us, and it was hilarious because Vince is like, he’s an incredible sailor. He was like such a good coach. And then we had Argyle, who’s like, he’s on the older side and also a really good sailor. He’s done so much sailing, and then three kids who were like, hadn’t sailed with the nationals in our lives, and…

34:17

But we were all pretty keen to do well. And, um, we had a lot of fun and we ended up winning the, um, like the best game base series in Miami that year, which is a pretty big deal. It means like over four regattas. We were the top team our very first year. And it was really funny like Vince, cause actually you can kind of change a lot of things, like you can change your head, stay line, you can change your, you know, your shroud lengths. You can do all this stuff. I guess the wind conditions change. And Vince was like, you guys are not allowed to touch the head.

34:46

Do not touch your upper shrouds. He was like, the only things you guys can change are your mast button, your lowers. So out of like the four things you can do to tune the boat, he only let us touch two of them. And which was pretty funny. I don’t know if he didn’t trust us or he was just trying to make it simple and having us keep our heads out of the boat. But he was probably the most memorable coach I’ve ever had. And so that was a really good experience. What year was that? What were those years? Oh man, that must have been

35:15

Like 2014, I think about 10 years ago. And then, and then after that year, we, uh, I started seeing Steve Benjamin on that show, which was really fun. He he’s like, he definitely treated it. He’s definitely brought some more intensity to the, his program. Cause he really expected to win and wanted to win and probably put more money into the, his program and stuff like that, but that was really fun. We, we, um, we’re pretty successful at Chills team. And I think we won the.

35:45

the Biscayne Bay series like the next five times in a row. And we won a Worlds and got second at a Worlds and third at a Worlds. So we were definitely the top team in the US I’d say. And yeah, it was super fun. And then he also had me do tactics for him on Spooky, which was his TP 52. And that was kind of my real opportunity and step up into kind of like bigger about sailing where then you start sailing with some other guys that have…

36:14

that are really top tier professionals and have done past America’s Cups or Volvo Ocean races and stuff like that. So that was really good for me. It was to be a really young tactician and, and have to tread lightly because knowing that there’s some other guys around me that are far more experienced than I was and just also, but it was a really great opportunity to just kind of soak up a lot of knowledge that they had. And so that was a great opportunity. And then from there I did.

36:40

kind of like some other 52 sailing and worked my way up to a Maxi 72. And did tactics on a boat called Proteus, which is a Maxi 72. And that’s where I met Terry Hutchinson, who is like the, he was the CEO of American Magic the last time around. And then he was like the president of sailing operations in Barcelona. So that’s where we got to know each other. And that’s where the job offer came for American Magic.

37:10

So you met Terry Hutchinson and he invited you to try out for the team. How does this work? How do you, how do you, how do you get on in America’s Cup teams? Yeah, it’s not, it’s not so straightforward. It’s kind of a, but anyway, so Terry and I kind of competed against each other as tacticians on the Maxxie 72, a couple of years in a row, our team beat his team at the Maxxie Worlds in Porto Cervo. And so I think he like, he definitely knew who I was and, and

37:38

You know, there, there must’ve been a little bit of respect there. Obviously I respected him greatly. But yeah, we, we just sat down for coffee one day and kind of, he got us to me if I was interested in the team and the America’s Cup and, and so we just kind of began talking in that manner. And then I think from his end, he then, I think he did, he did a lot of kind of just asked a lot of people that he knew about my reputation and asked other people if they thought I’d be a good hire and.

38:08

And I think he got good feedback. So, um, so then, yeah, they, he hired me, but yeah, due to your question, there’s no real formal pathway. There’s no tryouts. That being said, I think the community is small enough to where I think for the most part, everyone has a pretty good read on everyone in the community in terms of the reputation in terms of results. I think there should be a more clear pathway. I think now there definitely is a little bit more of a clear pathway just with.

38:35

youth kids being able to join youth teams and kind of get exposure to the teams and kind of work their way in. And then obviously it’s, if you’re interested in joining America’s Cup team, you can always proactively reach out to someone like Terry and say, Hey, I’m interested. I’d like to join the team. I’d like to know more. And, and so you can always take some initiative and go that route as well. But it’s hard for sure. I mean, like for example, in Barcelona, our ceiling team was only seven people. And

39:02

boats now only have four sailors. Like in Barcelona, we only had four sailors, four cyclists. So the team is really tiny. And in Barcelona, for example, we had Paul Goodison and Tom Slingsby. They’re not, you know, they’re both, like Tom’s American. He has an American passport, but they’re not like kind of true Americans. So really we only had like two kind of born in the U.S. Americans on the boat out of tons and tons of sailors. So it’s just hard nowadays to kind of get on the boat. We’re

39:32

We have four sailors in back sailing 12 meters. There are probably 12, 14 people sailing the boat. So, yeah. And what was one of my questions? Cause there’s a huge learning curve, I think, uh, learning to, to sail these boats, these foiling monohulls. I mean, it’s not even like the cats that the foiling cats that were in the past. I mean, it’s a whole new boat. Yeah. The physics is really interesting. I think that it took me probably like a year, a year and a half to like fully

40:01

wrap my head around the physics of the boat. I think like you can distill everything down into kind of more simpler terms and kind of like, if your role is to do one thing, like you can understand what to do and figure out what to do and when, but to really kind of holistically understand how the boat functions. And when I move like the flop, for example, how that affects you, Mo, as driving the boat or you as, you know, trimming the traveler on the boat. So like…

40:29

everything’s kind of linked together. And that’s kind of the hard part to understand is when I perform, when I do an action, like what are the reactions from that action? And that’s kind of the hardest thing to understand. And once you understand that you have a pretty good idea of, you know, how we can try to set this boat up to make it easier to sell because they’re really hard to sail. Yeah. I should let our audience know that your job on the boat was the trimmer or the flight controller, which is a little more involved than just pulling a.

40:58

sheet and trimming. It was both. It was both. So on starboard tack, I was the sail trimmer. So I trimmed the mainsail and trimmed the traveler. And then on port tack, I would trim the, I would fly the boat. So we passed off responsibility from tack to tack. And that was because of our location on the boat. So my cockpit was on starboard side. So when on starboard tack, it kind of makes sense that you are…

41:26

trimming the sails because you can see the sails, you can see the wind and you’re much farther away from the hydrofoil, which is really far out to Lourdes and then when you tack over and now we’re on port tack, it makes sense for the person in the starboard cockpit to then fly the boat because you can see the foil a little bit better. You’re closer to it. So your sensation of being high or low is it’s more accurate when you’re closer to the foil. But it was, it was an amazing thing to do because I got to learn how to do both, which is not normal.

41:56

So yeah, yeah, that’s awesome. What’s the fastest the boat went while you were on it? I want to say like 52 knots. Gosh. But only for a short amount of time. It’s, it’s usually in a bear way. Uh huh. Those are scary. Yeah. I mean, you could go that fast, uh, like reaching if you wanted to, like at any time, but, um, we’re more interested in like VMG sailing up on a downwind. I mean, the fastest we VMG sailed downwind.

42:25

was 48 knots for like a sustained leg minute or so, like down one going 48 knots. So that’s amazing. Yeah. Really incredible how fast they are. Wow. Yeah. Even compared to the still GP cats, I think they’re, they’re pretty quick. I’m curious to see what’s in store for the next America’s Cup and see where they’re going to go, but, um, yeah, I thought the racing was really interesting. And.

42:52

And I’m happy that the type of boat or the class of boat is staying consistent for a few cup cycles. I think the competition just keeps getting closer and closer together. And, um, and so the racing will get tighter. Yeah. Is there, I’m, I was going to ask you where you think the technology is going for this for the next couple ACs. People have asked me like, where are the biggest opportunities to, to, to, to, get an upper hand on the, on the other team. And, and I think now it’s less about.

43:20

kind of hardware, like, like in the past people can say, Oh, well, if you had a different keel wing or if you had, you know, a new type of carbon main sole on a 12 meter, like maybe that’s a serious, a serious advantage, but now I think it’s more about the, the logic and kind of the, the algorithmic systems that are kind of running in the background. I think that’s where a lot of the development can be, can be had. I think everyone, all the teams are building.

43:48

You know, very high quality sails, very high quality hydrofoils. The hole shapes are really interesting one because the drag associated with the hole compared to the hydrofoil is very, very minimal. So while like I think the last cup American magic probably had the best, the most aerodynamic hole shape because we went recumbent in our cyclists. They were, they were lying flat instead of being upright. But really that’s not, that doesn’t gain you a whole lot.

44:16

actually. It looks different, so the viewer is kind of attracted to that. But really, the foil shapes and the foil sizing is where a lot of the gains come from. What do you think? Is there something that you see to improve? I mean, what would have helped you guys to stay in it longer? What did the other boats have that you guys didn’t have yet? I think all the hardware that I just mentioned, I think our team did a really good job designing

44:46

lacked in some of the software on the software side. Since the boats are so hard to sail, I think the more, like if you have a software running in the background that’s assisting us to sail the boat, that really can make a big difference. We sailed the boat very manually. So we really didn’t have any software helping us sail the boat. Like no autopilot, nothing like that. It was all very manual. And I think that made it very challenging at times just because…

45:15

Um, consistency really does win races at that level. It really, especially with the narrow boundaries where you have, you have to do like 15, plus maneuvers a race. You can’t just do one tack and beat type of thing. You have to attack a lot. You have to drive a lot. So the more consistent, one of the more consistent you are in your maneuvers, you just eke out another 20 meters, another 15 meters, another 50 meters at times. So even if you’re, you could be a slower boat.

45:45

And have a higher consistency in maneuvers and you have a good chance at winning a race. So I think that’s where the software comes in and some automation just in terms of like building consistency to make sure that every tack is like a 95% VMG tack instead of a hundred percent or 110% or like a 70% type of thing, like just making sure that you’re like, it kind of, it kind of reminded me of like college sailing in a way where like

46:12

having really good consistent boat handling is a huge asset. And that’s kind of where some automation comes into play. So the automation though, is that, I think of like class rules, you know what I mean? If you’re racing like kind against like kind, they should all be the same. So some of the boats had more software behind it than you had? That doesn’t seem like it’s fair. This is part of the cup now. I think, you know, I think the America’s Cup,

46:42

has always been a bit of a free for all in terms of what you can design and build. That’s right. Look back to Australia’s keel back in the eighties and yeah. And now that the boats are so, um, so advanced, you need, you need a lot of electronics and, um, you know, you need a lot of computing to be able to see all the boats. So I think it’s just kind of part of the game in some ways, but I think, I think, it, I think it’s a really

47:07

fun, interesting part of the game too. Like I don’t think it’s something to be scared of. I think it’s something that you just have to have some really kind of visionary smart people to think forward two to four years and say, okay, in four years, I think we want to be sailing the boat like this with these layers of automation to help us. And then the sailors are kind of becoming sensors or, you know, being able to, to watch the wind more and make more tactical decisions. So I think it’s

47:35

I think there’s some benefits to it, but just understanding where that fits in is the hard part. Make it, it probably will make it a bit more safe as well. Yeah, for sure. Definitely. What’s next for you professionally? I’m doing some sailing on some TP52s in the Great Lakes this summer, and then sailing the Maxi Worldz on Proteus in September. We’re having another baby in April. So.

48:05

Try not to do so much sailing just so I can make sure that I have some time here at home with the two kids and and hopefully in this in the fall, hopefully we do another We start the America’s Cup again. So that’s I’m hopeful that uh There’s a lot of things happening right now. I think with a challenge of record and just trying to get to a point where all the teams are Are working with the afford?

48:32

way to do the America’s Cup with Emirates team New Zealand. So that’s all kind of being happened, all being figured out right now. And there’s a chance, I think that the America’s Cup doesn’t go in a direction that our principals want to go in and they might not do it again. Or if they’re happy with the direction, then we’ll do another round. So we’re just trying to wait and see how that all plays out a little bit. Is this the New York Yacht Club? Mm-hmm, yeah, New York Yacht Club, American Magic. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, fingers crossed that that all works out and we get to…

49:01

Go see one again in the fall. Do you know if you’re your next baby, your new baby coming as a boy or a girl? Yeah, that’s a little girl. Oh, nice. Oh, sweet. Sweet James is going to be a big brother to a little girl. We will be right back with this episode of the Good Jives podcast with Michael Meninger, America’s Cup Sailor.

49:27

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50:22

We’re going to switch tact here and do some lightning rounds. It’s just quick answers to a couple of questions. What’s your favorite book, Michael? It’s probably Catcher in the Rye by J.D. Salinger. Yes. Why? I think he’s my favorite, favorite writer. I think I think just just just his writing style. I think it’s my favorite. Uh-huh. I think Holden Caulfield is a great character. Yeah. You’ll be interested to know. I think I’ve read everything that J.D. Salinger ever wrote. Yeah, I have.

50:51

I literally just bought the one book I haven’t read. Who do you admire most in the world? I definitely admire my collective family a lot. Yeah, my mom, my dad, my older sisters, my grandparents. I really admired my grandparents a lot. I think they had a lasting impact on my life. Yeah, so I think my family. Yeah, I like your family too. And if you could have a cup of coffee or a glass of wine with anyone who ever lived or is still alive.

51:21

Who would that be? My wife, Caitlin. Oh, nice. Yeah. Like nobody’s ever said that. Oh, really? Yeah, that’s a great answer. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we enjoy having a glass of wine together. Yeah, so tell us why. We just love chatting, you know? We’re best friends and we enjoy a lot of the same things in the world and I think she pushes me the hardest and I try to push her as well and we just try to make a good environment.

51:50

for our collective family. So, yeah. That’s a good answer. As a child, what did you want to be when you grew up? That’s a good question. I think I wanted to be an NBA player. Basketball? Yeah, basketball is my favorite sport to watch. So I’m a huge Laker fan and I grew up watching Kobe and Shaq and I’ve probably watched like 90% of Laker games that have happened since I’ve.

52:19

been like eight years old. So that’s like, yeah, I like, I like, you know, we’d go shoot shots in our backyard, like after Laker games in the night, just like pretending I was winning games. You know, that’s pretty far away from it. But that was my that was really cute. Not a fireman. No, I want to be Kobe Bryant. Yeah, sure. So this is funny. I had this question in here. My next question, and I had no idea you were going to answer that

52:48

But so this was my next question. Do you remember the first time you saw Caitlin? Yeah, for sure first date How’d that come about? We met on a dating app actually We went to a little sushi place one of my favorites called sushi time Castro and it’s like a little underground sushi place and That’s where we met for the first time and you knew did you know right away?

53:14

Yeah, I kind of knew right away she was pretty special. I did a funny thing later that night. I went home and sat on my roommate’s bed and told him about the date, which I never do. Oh, that’s nice. In two words or less, what did you feel the first time you saw James, your son? Yeah, absolute love. Where’s your favorite place in the world to sail? I mean, actually I love racing in San Francisco. I think the other places I like to race in are the Gorge and…

53:43

Is it the Columbia River? Yeah. Yep. And then Porto Cervo in Sardinia. And like the reason I’d have to say Catalina probably or, uh, yeah, Catalina. Catalina is the first place I ever cruised to that I discovered cruising too. Being on the boat overnight and stuff. You remember where you went? I do. So I’m not from California, but it was like, so there’s Avalon. And then if you’re facing Avalon to the right, there’s, so I guess that would be north.

54:12

to two days over, was it like Christmas Cove or something? Is there something called Christmas? Is there a place called Christmas Cove? I’m not sure, I’m not sure if you can hear that part, yeah. Anyway, it was fabulous. And we went, we got abalone and, you know, so I had that sense of what it’s like. It was really, and of course I was the Virgin on it not long after that and really did some real cruising. But I wanted to ask you like, what’s the greatest gift you think sailing has given you?

54:42

And what would you say to younger people coming up behind you? How would, how do they pursue their dreams? Yeah, that’s a great question. I think, I think sailing, the greatest gift sailing has given me is, is, um, it’s just like learning how to be a good teammate. You know, you really have to figure out on the spot of how to work with people, maybe for the first time, maybe not. And then how to face challenges, like whether, whether you’re just getting off the dock and going sailing or whether you’re actually competing in a

55:09

in a high level race, there’s a lot of challenges that come at you. Some planned, some unplanned. And I think being able to work with a team to get through those challenges and, and prepare for challenges, you know, potential challenges is something that you can’t really get from any other sports. I mean, you can a little bit, but I think sailing is really unique where, where you have to really work as a team, plan ahead, you know, try to foresee what’s going to happen next and then respond and keep cool all at the same time.

55:38

I think there’s a lot of parallels with that at a very high level with other businesses and stuff like that. And so I think it’s a really valuable thing to know how to do. Great. Well, I want to say thank you to you for taking the time to talk with us today because I know you’re really busy and you’ve got a lot of priorities with family and stuff right now. I also want to say thank you to you, our listeners. Without you, there would be no podcast.

56:04

If you like the podcast, think about advertising with us at Latitude38. And if not, subscribe to our magazine and the podcast at Latitude38.com. I’m Moe Roddy, and I’ve been your host today on the Good Jibes Podcast. Until next time, take the word impossible out of your vocabulary and dream big. Cheers!